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Post by Adriel Sorano on Sept 9, 2011 19:21:55 GMT -5
Okay...so...I know the deal with Hidden Abilities...there's no Dream World on the site, so no Hidden Abilities. But, as far as I'm concerned, that's kinda bogus, seeing as how some Hidden Abilities are kinda awesome. Like, for example, Darmanitan's Zen Mode. I could have so much fun working with that it's not even funny.
Either way, here's what I'm proposing.
a) Just ignore the whole dream world thing and allow Hidden Abilities period. Because, in all honesty, I don't see much difference between them and the "regular" Abilities. Yes, some of the Dream World Abilities are awesome and potentially overpowered. But so are some Pokemon's normal abilities. For example. Lilligant can have Own Tempo, which means she can spam Petal Dance (which, for the record, is now as powerful as SolarBeam) with zero repercussions. Usually, Petal Dance would leave the user confused, which, as well all know, is kinda bad...but not this Pokemon!
or, if you don't like the idea of all kinds of Pokemon running around with Hidden Abilities for no apparent reason...
b) Set up an area to function like a cross between Dream World and Saffari Zone. Characters will have to pay to get in, but it will give them a chance at a Pokemon with a Hidden Ability without having them running wild like it's going out of style
Either way, lemme know what you guys think. Personally speaking, I think they should be included either way, simply because I don't like the idea of specific things being completely left out because one or two people don't like them.
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Post by Thomas Faye on Sept 9, 2011 20:19:14 GMT -5
I think it should all be left to the person who MOD's the Pokemon. It's already their own choice so I don't see why it should be that big of a deal. MOD's aren't brain-dead, they'll know the best choice.
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Post by Tyler Silverman on Sept 9, 2011 22:25:06 GMT -5
Smart-ass comment incoming!
Saying you don't want stuff blocked from 1-2 people, but then we should have Hidden abilities since YOU want those abilties...
Just saying.
I'll also say it that 3/4 of people will say yes just to get DW abilities of their own, it's a lot like another site. Made signature sizes much much larger, everyone was happy. Then heaps of idiots abused it and had sig-images that were 99% of the time larger than posts. People complained, nobody gave a damn since the "masses were happy". People don't say no to more freedom.
Regardless, I don't want DreamWorld abilities to be available to every Tom Dick and Harry, given some are ridiciously overpowered ingame... they'd tear PA limb from limb. Earn it, yes, work for it in a Dream-Park area are you suggested, yes. Just battle some pansy Snivy that just happens to have Contrary ability cause the mod felt like it? Yeahno I don't agree with that.
There's a lot to list but these will generally screw PA over:
- Chlorophyll Venusaur
- Drought Ninetales
- Just about anything that got Swift Swim
- Imposter Ditto
- Multiscale Dragonite
- Drizzle Politoed
- Magic Bounce Espeon
- Speed Boost Blazekin
- Technician Breloom
- Speed Boost Sharpedo
- Poison Heal Gliscor
- Thick Fat Mamoswine
- Contrary Serperior
- Shadow Tag Canderlure
Eventually someone'll get one of these, and everyone without a FE'd favour or Event will be screwed. They're still "normal" Pokemon but they've got a real big advantage.
My only issue with the mods is their choice can be whatever they want. Emphasis on the they. So you could find a Litwick you can really want Flash Fire or Tag, and they'll give you Flame Body. And then a new trainer in their first thread could find a Drought Vulpix. So unless you've earned it I don't really see why you should get it.
Woooooooooooo bring on the hate!
Edit: We've also still got 90% of Dragon types banned, and a lot of these can own Dragon types. Something to muse over.
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Post by Adriel Sorano on Sept 9, 2011 23:24:28 GMT -5
While I have no idea what other sites' signature sizes has to do with anything, the whole thing about "every Tom, Dick, and Harry having one" thing is part of why I also suggested some sort of Safari Zone-type deal...to limit access to them. And I also agree with Tom. The mods on here aren't so stupid that they're just going to be giving away powerful Pokemon like free samples at a supermarket. And, as for all the Pokemon you listed...well...I still don't see the big deal, and I can even see some ways around a few of them
- Poison Heal Gliscor? DON'T POISON IT! OMG!!!!
- Drought Ninetales and Drizzle Politoed?! Oh no! We're doomed because there aren't any ways to change the weather! OH WAIT! THERE ARE!!
- Thick Fat Mamoswine? HOPE IT CAN SWIM!
- Technician Breloom? OH GEEZ FLYING STILL DOES x4 DAMAGE
...I think you see my point >.>
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Post by Raize Phoenix on Sept 9, 2011 23:48:17 GMT -5
<.< I like totally agree with myself. I think that it does make sense for poke to have dream world abilities, unless the ability is just going to make the pokemon OP. And like Adriel said, there are plenty of ways around them. and actually, for those who havent noticed, mod threads pretty much go in the direction the mod plans for it to go. But dont listen to me, its not like Im a mod.
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Post by Tyler Silverman on Sept 10, 2011 0:00:19 GMT -5
The somewhat obscure point I was attempting to make is that if the masses want it, it'll happen regardless of whether a load of Milktank-pie comes out of it or not. You offer more freedom they sure won't turn it down, we offer DW abilities no-one would turn it down even if it makes the strong even more OP than they already are.
Limited access I agree with, normal captures in that zone would have crummy abilities and catching an actually good DW Ability Pokemon would have to be hard... and difficultly scale up according to actual strength of trainer.
- Toxic Orb says hai
- Enjoy forking over $ for weather TM's, but I'll give you that they're better ingame
- Loses Fire weakness = good
- Mach Punch + accurate Spore. Hypnosis is just as/more accurate on PA so Spore's accucary is probably moot point.
My basic point is, a lot of these are killer ingame. INGAME where they are restricted to 1 move per turn, inability to dodge/counter moves with other moves. Killer stuff ingame losing those limitations means they'd be super killer.
Do remember this is PA, where Earthquake is but a jump in the air away from missing =3
On the point of "they should logically appear", I kind of think the opposite. Without a "Dream Area" or something, is there even any explanation why this Litwick has Shadow Tag? Or are we just pretending they've been out there this entire time and we just didn't find any =/
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Post by Eros Wakefield on Sept 10, 2011 9:25:43 GMT -5
Suggestion: Put the Plains of Hell to use and make it where all the DW Ability Pokemon live. The mod decides if you stumble upon the plains via a roll out of 50 or something? People would have to work for it with constant threads in the Endless Plains, and it isn't totally up to the mod whether they stumble upon one or not.
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Post by Van Akiyama on Sept 11, 2011 3:16:54 GMT -5
The introduction of Dream World Abilities (DWA) to this site is something I would personally like to see. However, I do have to agree with some of the points Tyler has made as well. After seeing this thread, I began seriously looking through all of the DWA's that Pokemon had and I've noticed that the range of usefulness of a lot of these abilities varies quite a bit.
Some of them are beneficial to the point of possibly being overpowered, such as Gliscor's Poison Heal, Venusaur's Chlorophyll, Blaziken's Speed Boost and Chandelure's Shadow Tag. For example, a Poison Heal Gliscor holding a Toxic Orb is a Pokemon that can heal up to 16% of its maximum HP per turn (post). I know we don't use percents here, but I'm just giving a scope of things. Add in Protect every other turn and you have an incredible tank that will take incredible amounts of abuse before it falls. Then add in Toxic and Earthquake and Gliscor pretty much becomes the bane of any non-poison/ice type Pokemon that's not immune to poison and ground type attacks. A Venusaur with Chlorophyll, Sunny Day and Growth means an immediate +4 Attack, +4 Special Attack and doubled speed with the use of Sunny Day and two Growths all in a single post. Of course, Shadow Tag has always been one of the most annoying and overpowered abilities in the series. So much so that it was outright banned in the metagame until fifth gen tiers were released.
Of course, Adriel already pointed out that some Pokemon's normal abilities are in the same boat already. A Lilligant with Own Tempo can continuously use Petal Dance without the repercussion of becoming confused at the end. While that itself doesn't seem as broken as the Gliscor above, you should remember that Lilligant can use Quiver Dance. A Lilligant constantly using +3 (or even +6 if it powers up enough), 120 base power, STAB Petal Dances without the balance of getting confused at the end of it makes it a much deadlier force to be reckoned with considering its already high Special Attack and the ability to dodge incoming attacks easier than you can in the games. Ninjask, which has Speed Boost, can simply use Baton Pass to pass on any Swords Dance and Speed Boost gains that its acquired to a Pokemon of the trainer's choosing. A Breloom with Technician can produce some of the most powerful Mach Punches and Bullet Seeds in the series, but Scizor with the Technician ability can also produce the most powerful Bullet Punches in the entire series.
Some of the abilities I've seen simply boost the Pokemon's potential, such as Ditto's Imposter, Infernape's Iron Fist, and Mamoswine's Thick Fat. Mamoswine's Thick Fat is very useful to the part ice type Pokemon in the fact that it eliminates its weakness to the fire type. However, this isn't really overpowered because there are already Pokemon only weak to a single type. There are even a few Pokemon with no weaknesses at all, such as Spiritomb and Sableye. Just because it get's rid of one of a Pokemon's weaknesses doesn't mean its overpowered. On this site, Ditto can use Transform and then attack in the same post due to the three moves per post rule, so the addition of this ability isn't a huge step up for it in the first place. Altaria's Cloud Nine ability certainly helps when confronting a Pokemon like Hippowdon, but outside of that, it's fairly useless. Like Infernape's Iron Fist, a lot of the DWA's can give a helpful boost to a Pokemon, but the boost isn't so massive to be considered overpowered.
Some DWA's I've seen can help a Pokemon but are generally outclassed by the Pokemon's other abilities, such as Galvantula's Swarm compared to its Compoundeyes, Excadrill's Mold Breaker compared to its Sand Rush, and Togekiss' Super Luck compared to its Serene Grace. Yes, the DWA's on these Pokemon are helpful, but their natural abilities are already much more useful. There are plenty DWA's like this. There are even some DWA's that hurt the Pokemon in question more than they help it, such as Durant's Truant ability. That's pretty terrible to get as a hidden ability, in my opinion.
The only problem abilities I can see people having legitimate reason to complain about (from Tyler's list) are Venusaur's, Blaziken's, Gliscor's and Chandelure's. These four have abilities that compliment their abilities to an extreme sense, especially Gliscor and Venusaur. I don't see a point in complaining about or calling out the two weather inducers because we already have Tyanitars and Hippowdons running around unrestricted, who both start up a permanent sandstorm when they hit the field. Sharpedo is still limited to large bodies of water, so it's still fairly limited in use even with Speed Boost. Even if (and hopefully when) Dragonite became unrestricted, the Roost and Multiscale combo will only get it so far, especially in the face of Ice Beam or Blizzard. And even then, Hail, Sandstorm, Burn, Poison and other constant damage effects stops it. Finally, Espeon's ability can be a double edged sword. For example, a Chandelure and Electivire with Flash Fire and Motor Drive (Respectively) can aim their Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave (Respectively) attacks at it and power itself up.
So basically, I see DWA's as a very mixed bag when it comes to usefulness. Some are good to the point of being overpowered, but most are just about as useful or useless as the natural abilities.
Now, as for the argument 'there are plenty of ways around these'... You have to realize that not everyone is going to have the appropriate measures to counter a well used Pokemon with a DWA. Not everyone is going to have Pokemon with weather inducing attacks or abilities or Cloud Nine without the aid of TM's. Some people may not even have Pokemon who can learn such attacks and others still may not even have enough money to buy the TM's and/or items needed to set up an appropriate counter. It's the same with attacks like Taunt and Gastro Acid. Not everyone will have them.
Yet, at the same time, this can also be said for just about any strategy. A person may not have the Haze or other stat resetting move to bring down a Togekiss that's been super powered by three Nasty Plots or a Scrafty that's buffed itself with six Bulk Up attacks. It's very difficult to have a counter to every strategy in a series where strategies keep evolving and DWA's are only expanding the amount of strategies trainers can use.
Now, right off the bat, I will say that a rule will be put into place that Pokemon with DWA's cannot be favor or event Pokemon. I'll admit right now that I've downright hated the idea of 'favor' Pokemon. In my eyes, it's just a subtle way of saying 'I'll give you a power boosted Pokemon for a bribe of some kind'. Event Pokemon are fine if the person in question put in enough work to deserve one (200+ ads, winning a major site tournament, ect). Back to my original point though, a DWA Pokemon with the power of a favor or event Pokemon behind it would really be overpowered. Imagine a Poison Heal Gliscor with doubled stats, Protect, Toxic and a Toxic Orb. A normal Gliscor with this combination would be powerful enough already, but with doubled stats, it would be nearly unstoppable. This is why I wouldn't allow a DWA Pokemon to also be favor or event.
As for distribution of Pokemon with DWA's, I'm personally torn between just having them roam around like other normal Pokemon and having a designated area where they roam around. On one hand, having them roam around like other normal Pokemon would allow us to avoid adding a whole new layer of boards for the dream world. It would also ensure that Pokemon with DWA's would be a bit more rare because they're mingled in with the normal Pokemon, though not by much. On the other hand, having a designated area where students have to pay to get in offers a much more interesting curve on things. Pokemon with DWA would be less rare because everyone would know exactly where to go to find one, though it also depends on whether the price is made extremely high or affordable for most players. I personally don't like to think that we'd offer DWA Pokemon to only the richest members...
I'm personally leaning more towards letting the Pokemon with DWA's simply mingle with the normal Pokemon around the island. There are plenty of explanations we could use to explain the sudden appearance of DWA Pokemon around the island and it opens up the possibility of getting a Pokemon with such abilities to everyone on the site, as opposed to only those who have enough money to get into the designated area. I'm sure most of the mods and admins are responsible enough to not give away Pokemon with DWA's like candy or fall victim to a little plague known as 'bias' if we let them decide when they appear. I do, however, believe that Pokemon with DWA's should be a bit more rare than Pokemon with normal abilities.
Obviously, not many people will turn down the chance to have DWA abilities unbanned, but I personally don't think that giving the site access to these abilities is giving too much freedom. Creating custom Pokemon, giving them the ability to power up their own Pokemon without a good reason and allowing them to mod their own threads would be giving too much freedom. It is a thin line, I admit, but I don't think giving them these abilities is crossing that line.
An idea that I've been tossing around in my head recently is giving characters opportunities to convert one of their Pokemon to a Pokemon with a DWA. They would need support of a few teachers and Tao to even attempt, the process would be dangerous for both the Pokemon and the student and it would be an extremely difficult (And possibly long) process to complete successfully. If they failed, serious consequences could follow (The Pokemon leaves the trainer, the Pokemon dies, either the Pokemon, the Trainer or both gets seriously injured, ect.) depending on how badly they botched the process. They would only be able to do this once a month or every other month and only with a single Pokemon at a time. It's just an idea I've had recently, since some people might have Pokemon they would like a DWA on instead of the ability they have now.
That about does it for my feelings on the subject. I may have missed something or misworded some stuff, but yeah... Anyways, I wanna point out a few things that have been said so far. No particular order, just point them out as I see and remember them. Some of this will also pertain to this discussion.
I'll just put this bluntly. You, Tyler, had no reason to be a smart ass and jackass in your post. It was pretty uncalled for when, even if the post seemed a bit selfish to you. Also, even if it seems like they're complaining, you've complained about so many things that you shouldn't have the right to get on someone's case for trying to state their opinion. There was absolutely no reason to instigate what could have fanned out into an argument like that.
Of course, Adriel isn't free of blame either since she retaliated with as much sarcasm and jackass-y-ness. You should know better than to fan the flames of a potential argument like that. Both of you please to act a bit more mature from now on.
While I used Tyler's quotes to point out the contradiction here, it's aimed at both Adriel and Tyler. Limiting access to Pokemon with DWA's to only those who have enough money will cause the same problem from the first line in the quote above. Only the people who have posted their asses off will have the money to get into the area if the price is set too high. Not only that, but people who don't have enough money to get into the place and don't have a favor or event Pokemon will be screwed because they don't have access to favor, event or DWA Pokemon. If the price is set too low, having the restricted area would be pointless because most of the members would be able to get in anyways.
I'd just like to point out that Earthquake doesn't last for a split second. It lasts long enough that a simple jump won't have enough air time in it to avoid the blunt of the attack, which is why it has 100 accuracy. |
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Post by Adriel Sorano on Sept 11, 2011 3:59:30 GMT -5
Van makes a lot of excellent points
Also...yeah, I guess that was kind of immature of me, and I apologize. I wasn't in the best of moods when I posted that, and I let my snarkiness get the better of me. So...yeah. I'll make an effort to keep that in check
The more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to learn toward the idea of having them simply run wild myself. I mean...I'm sure we could do this and find a way to justify the fact that they haven't existed so far. Or we could just be lazy and say they've always been there, just no one has found them until now. I mean...when you think about it, it wouldn't make any less sense than all the Pokemon who randomly gained pre-evolutions/evolved forms one or two generations after their debut. Or both, in Roselia and Chansey's case.
Also, this idea of taking a challenge to change their Abilities also sounds interesting. That could be a way of dealing with the more potentially over-powered DWAs, like Venusaur or Gliscor. Another thing I was thinking was maybe applying something similar to the ideas I had for giving out rare Pokemon. Either limit how many appear during a certain amount of time or make a hidden roll for each one. If the roll passes, it can have its DWA, should the mod choose to do so.
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